This post made some things click for me. I agree with the attitudes described in the "Polyamory is the friends we made along the way" section and hadn't realized how unusual this is. You previously told me "I think the girls you'd be interested are less likely to be on apps or have a good experience on apps", and now I think I better understand why this is the case: not only do dating apps cater more to people who view dating as separate from friendship, but I participate in enough groups centered around shared interests that I'd be somewhat skeptical of my compatibility with any local woman who I haven't already met in at least one of these groups.
I'm a pretty religious Christian, and I went to a very small college for undergrad. So like your rationalist group, my friend group and my dating pool coincided. The majority of my friends from undergrad either married someone from our Christian fellowship, or (like me) went to grad school and married someone from a Christian fellowship there.
The main difference is that dating was understood to be a pretty serious step toward finding someone to marry. So most of the people I knew were only ever involved in one or two relationships. And of course, those relationships generally didn't involve sex until after marriage.
It sounds like it transitioned from "there's sexual attraction in the group and that's great" when everyone was single and transitioned smoothly to "there's no sexual attraction (that anyone wants to acknowledge) because we're mostly all married". Was it something like that?
The biggest "aha!" for me was the "Polyamory is the friends we made along the way" stuff, which I didn't realize was unusual. But the biggest "YES, I am living this RIGHT NOW" is the content on friend scarcity having an inhibiting effect on dating.
I used to live in a city where making and keeping friends was easy-breezy, and consequently I found dating to be pretty easy, too, despite many long-standing dating-related insecurities handicapping me. In contrast, for the last few years I've lived in a city where I've had a horrible time making and keeping friendships, and my dating life has been non-existent. It makes me double miserable! You put the experience to words very nicely.
P.S. -- Don't worry, I'm moving very soon to a place where I have many close friendships waiting for me with open arms, and I'm hoping this will help my dating life, too.
Interesting. Can't relate--I had no friends so I just went on the apps and dated a bunch of people, none of whom I ultimately wanted to settle down with. (Though honestly the financial risk of divorce was kind of high.) I did remain friends with a bunch though.
I do kind of feel like rationalism is mostly male and not of much use for dating for non-gay men from what I've seen. Obviously your experience is very different.
This really suggested a theory that made sense for me, which is that maybe i haven’t had the dating i want because i am rarely in circles who share my friendship norms either.
My friend group’s perspective on friendships with girls doesn’t really fit into the your categories. There's nothing morally wrong with sexual tension being there, but it becomes painful. You can be friends, but if a girl is attractive enough, at some point, the friendship stops being just that—it turns into torture because the guy ends up wanting physical intimacy. And real emotional intimacy, where you truly rely on each other, almost inevitably leads to unwanted feelings—no thanks, I’d rather not sign up for a month-long depression. Women seem to be able to stay just friends without falling in love, or at least that’s how it looks from the male side. And if I can’t have a deep connection, then what’s even the point of pursuing a friendship? So most of us deliberately avoid further developing connection with pretty girls as soon as they show they're not interested.
I was expecting there to be an option for, “Yes, they can be friends, and there won’t be any sexual tension.” Seriously, my best friend is a girl, and we’re both married with absolutely no sexual tension. You pointed out that a minority of men find very few people in their friend group attractive. For these men the answer is yes, obviously.
I have some friends, but I don't have a friend group. I made these friends in different contexts. I always felt it's harder to fall into a friend group than getting a date.
This post made some things click for me. I agree with the attitudes described in the "Polyamory is the friends we made along the way" section and hadn't realized how unusual this is. You previously told me "I think the girls you'd be interested are less likely to be on apps or have a good experience on apps", and now I think I better understand why this is the case: not only do dating apps cater more to people who view dating as separate from friendship, but I participate in enough groups centered around shared interests that I'd be somewhat skeptical of my compatibility with any local woman who I haven't already met in at least one of these groups.
My friend group didn't look like any of these.
I'm a pretty religious Christian, and I went to a very small college for undergrad. So like your rationalist group, my friend group and my dating pool coincided. The majority of my friends from undergrad either married someone from our Christian fellowship, or (like me) went to grad school and married someone from a Christian fellowship there.
The main difference is that dating was understood to be a pretty serious step toward finding someone to marry. So most of the people I knew were only ever involved in one or two relationships. And of course, those relationships generally didn't involve sex until after marriage.
It sounds like it transitioned from "there's sexual attraction in the group and that's great" when everyone was single and transitioned smoothly to "there's no sexual attraction (that anyone wants to acknowledge) because we're mostly all married". Was it something like that?
Yeah, you could put it that way.
The biggest "aha!" for me was the "Polyamory is the friends we made along the way" stuff, which I didn't realize was unusual. But the biggest "YES, I am living this RIGHT NOW" is the content on friend scarcity having an inhibiting effect on dating.
I used to live in a city where making and keeping friends was easy-breezy, and consequently I found dating to be pretty easy, too, despite many long-standing dating-related insecurities handicapping me. In contrast, for the last few years I've lived in a city where I've had a horrible time making and keeping friendships, and my dating life has been non-existent. It makes me double miserable! You put the experience to words very nicely.
P.S. -- Don't worry, I'm moving very soon to a place where I have many close friendships waiting for me with open arms, and I'm hoping this will help my dating life, too.
Interesting. Can't relate--I had no friends so I just went on the apps and dated a bunch of people, none of whom I ultimately wanted to settle down with. (Though honestly the financial risk of divorce was kind of high.) I did remain friends with a bunch though.
I do kind of feel like rationalism is mostly male and not of much use for dating for non-gay men from what I've seen. Obviously your experience is very different.
This really suggested a theory that made sense for me, which is that maybe i haven’t had the dating i want because i am rarely in circles who share my friendship norms either.
My friend group’s perspective on friendships with girls doesn’t really fit into the your categories. There's nothing morally wrong with sexual tension being there, but it becomes painful. You can be friends, but if a girl is attractive enough, at some point, the friendship stops being just that—it turns into torture because the guy ends up wanting physical intimacy. And real emotional intimacy, where you truly rely on each other, almost inevitably leads to unwanted feelings—no thanks, I’d rather not sign up for a month-long depression. Women seem to be able to stay just friends without falling in love, or at least that’s how it looks from the male side. And if I can’t have a deep connection, then what’s even the point of pursuing a friendship? So most of us deliberately avoid further developing connection with pretty girls as soon as they show they're not interested.
I was expecting there to be an option for, “Yes, they can be friends, and there won’t be any sexual tension.” Seriously, my best friend is a girl, and we’re both married with absolutely no sexual tension. You pointed out that a minority of men find very few people in their friend group attractive. For these men the answer is yes, obviously.
I have some friends, but I don't have a friend group. I made these friends in different contexts. I always felt it's harder to fall into a friend group than getting a date.