There is one important difference between men and women which I think is central to this yin/yang thing: women have ridiculously short fertility windows compared to men. Men can play carefree well into middle age, women do not have this luxury. Selecting for genuine commitment is orders of magnitude more important for the average woman than for the average man, and doing Yin is just more effective at that than doing Yang, precisely because it selects out lazy or barely/so-so interested men.
I spent two years in Canada and the US, and one of the saddest things I noticed in North American dating is how normalised it was there to see men stringing along women in non-committal ‘situationships’ well into their late thirties, doing the bare minimum of the minimum, not proposing after sometimes a decade (a decade!), while she does everything, plans their vacations and dates, and keeps the relationship alive, while being very obviously miserable about it and wondering ‘when the hell will we finally marry?’, and ‘when will we have kids?’. It was depressing. And women-focused subreddits are also full of such stories. The even more depressing part was that these women were just following the playbook hammered in by Hollywood, popular culture, and corporate feminism – most young women today know very well how to ‘girlboss’ (how to Yang, in other words) because girlbosses are the only role model allowed for women, but they do not really know how to ‘girl’ tout court (or how to 'Yin) . But girlbossing is precisely what puts them in such situations.
Conservative dating norms – men do the asking out, the courting, pay for dates (what you call yang); women make themselves attractive and available (what you call the yin) – may be hard on the eye for progressive liberals (like me/us), but they made things so much easier for everyone. He does not ask you out? He is not that into you (as that amazing book says). He does not court you? He is not that into you. He does not propose after a reasonable timeframe? He is not that into you. And as a woman, the rule number one is that you should not date/dump men who are not that into you. And as a man, the easiest way to show you are into her is to do the above. One of the reasons dating is so fucked these days IMO is that these norms fell apart. Or rather, women were bullied into believing it is bad to require these from men, and they are now left very confused and not understanding what went wrong.
By the way, this is why ‘who pays on dates’ and 'what is the point of chilvalry?' are such contested aspects of today’s dating discourse. Willingness to pay and public displays of commitment are indeed the most hard-to-fake and foolproof signals of genuine interest there are. This is also why most women seem to be so conflicted about it – torn between the girlboss ‘I can pay/take care for myself’ ideal and the ‘I need to know if he is using me’ imperative. And of course, going 50/50 with a buddy dynamic is great for men - any norm that mantains ambiguity on their intentions is great for men.
That whole thing sorta reminded me of the magic system in The Wheel of Time books. There, the magic power is divided into two halves - saidar and saidin, which females and males use. The main difference between the two is that in order to master saidin, one needs to proactively struggle with it, dominate it, control it, lest it burns the user to ash, while saidar, the female one, requires one to surrender to the flow of power and then subtly influence it to make the magic happen, lest it drowns the user in its flow. And the best results are achieved when there are ways to combine both powers.
This lines up with my experiences of attempting yang strategies as a woman. I think the issues you mention are further exacerbated by the fact that most men have little practice in the yin role.
As an example, getting asked out is such a rarity for most men that they have no practice of learning when to say "no". So a woman who is asked out by a guy she is only 5% interested in will say no, but a man is more likely to be so flattered by the rarity that he will say yes.
As you mention, yang approaches are a great way to get casual things, but my best healthy long term relationships have all been in situations where the guy was the original pursuant.
It's interesting that you note that a woman who starts with yang energy needs to be ok maintaining it. At some point I settled into a heuristic where if I pursued towards a first date that they would have to pursue towards a second date. No one I pursued to a first date ever initiated to a second date. (Previously, guys I pursued towards a first date would say yes when I initiated towards a second date, but none of those ended up with satisfying relationships for me... I just learned that men will go along with whatever you initiate even if they're not that invested or interested)
This is great! I really appreciate that you made space for gender-nonconforming people and discussing the challenges that come along with that. I have a few minor quibbles, but they're not that important.
The only major issue I have is with the assertion that "The classic yin/yang pattern is a necessity under high uncertainty: it gives people established roles to slide into, and a way to gather information about each others’ character, level of interest, approach to intimacy, and long-term compatibility."
That's not a bad option, but it's not necessary. Everything is permitted. Yang/yang or yin/yin relationships happen all the time, most notably with gay & lesbian couples, but also with plenty of hetero couples. There are also roles that don't fit in to the yin/yang dichotomy, and people manage to use those too. I bristle at any suggestion that anything is necessary or mandatory to establish a good dynamic. The world contains multitudes and can't be condensed into a single successful dynamic.
It's also funny that I was discussing this on Discord today and I also linked to the "reverse any advice you hear" post to acknowledge that all advice is conditional XD
I find the advice for yin men (advice I desperately need, I'm learning!) to "be hot/get famous" confusing -- pursuits that would result in fame (writing this substack, being a rockstar, etc) sound very yangish to me. Is there something I'm missing?
There is one important difference between men and women which I think is central to this yin/yang thing: women have ridiculously short fertility windows compared to men. Men can play carefree well into middle age, women do not have this luxury. Selecting for genuine commitment is orders of magnitude more important for the average woman than for the average man, and doing Yin is just more effective at that than doing Yang, precisely because it selects out lazy or barely/so-so interested men.
I spent two years in Canada and the US, and one of the saddest things I noticed in North American dating is how normalised it was there to see men stringing along women in non-committal ‘situationships’ well into their late thirties, doing the bare minimum of the minimum, not proposing after sometimes a decade (a decade!), while she does everything, plans their vacations and dates, and keeps the relationship alive, while being very obviously miserable about it and wondering ‘when the hell will we finally marry?’, and ‘when will we have kids?’. It was depressing. And women-focused subreddits are also full of such stories. The even more depressing part was that these women were just following the playbook hammered in by Hollywood, popular culture, and corporate feminism – most young women today know very well how to ‘girlboss’ (how to Yang, in other words) because girlbosses are the only role model allowed for women, but they do not really know how to ‘girl’ tout court (or how to 'Yin) . But girlbossing is precisely what puts them in such situations.
Conservative dating norms – men do the asking out, the courting, pay for dates (what you call yang); women make themselves attractive and available (what you call the yin) – may be hard on the eye for progressive liberals (like me/us), but they made things so much easier for everyone. He does not ask you out? He is not that into you (as that amazing book says). He does not court you? He is not that into you. He does not propose after a reasonable timeframe? He is not that into you. And as a woman, the rule number one is that you should not date/dump men who are not that into you. And as a man, the easiest way to show you are into her is to do the above. One of the reasons dating is so fucked these days IMO is that these norms fell apart. Or rather, women were bullied into believing it is bad to require these from men, and they are now left very confused and not understanding what went wrong.
By the way, this is why ‘who pays on dates’ and 'what is the point of chilvalry?' are such contested aspects of today’s dating discourse. Willingness to pay and public displays of commitment are indeed the most hard-to-fake and foolproof signals of genuine interest there are. This is also why most women seem to be so conflicted about it – torn between the girlboss ‘I can pay/take care for myself’ ideal and the ‘I need to know if he is using me’ imperative. And of course, going 50/50 with a buddy dynamic is great for men - any norm that mantains ambiguity on their intentions is great for men.
That whole thing sorta reminded me of the magic system in The Wheel of Time books. There, the magic power is divided into two halves - saidar and saidin, which females and males use. The main difference between the two is that in order to master saidin, one needs to proactively struggle with it, dominate it, control it, lest it burns the user to ash, while saidar, the female one, requires one to surrender to the flow of power and then subtly influence it to make the magic happen, lest it drowns the user in its flow. And the best results are achieved when there are ways to combine both powers.
"The failures of both yin or yang come from lack of respect for the other."
"Skillful yin and skillful yang require deep understanding of both"
Yes!! I'm working on a post of my own comparing yin/yang to ask/guess culture and this is their key difference
This lines up with my experiences of attempting yang strategies as a woman. I think the issues you mention are further exacerbated by the fact that most men have little practice in the yin role.
As an example, getting asked out is such a rarity for most men that they have no practice of learning when to say "no". So a woman who is asked out by a guy she is only 5% interested in will say no, but a man is more likely to be so flattered by the rarity that he will say yes.
As you mention, yang approaches are a great way to get casual things, but my best healthy long term relationships have all been in situations where the guy was the original pursuant.
It's interesting that you note that a woman who starts with yang energy needs to be ok maintaining it. At some point I settled into a heuristic where if I pursued towards a first date that they would have to pursue towards a second date. No one I pursued to a first date ever initiated to a second date. (Previously, guys I pursued towards a first date would say yes when I initiated towards a second date, but none of those ended up with satisfying relationships for me... I just learned that men will go along with whatever you initiate even if they're not that invested or interested)
This is great! I really appreciate that you made space for gender-nonconforming people and discussing the challenges that come along with that. I have a few minor quibbles, but they're not that important.
The only major issue I have is with the assertion that "The classic yin/yang pattern is a necessity under high uncertainty: it gives people established roles to slide into, and a way to gather information about each others’ character, level of interest, approach to intimacy, and long-term compatibility."
That's not a bad option, but it's not necessary. Everything is permitted. Yang/yang or yin/yin relationships happen all the time, most notably with gay & lesbian couples, but also with plenty of hetero couples. There are also roles that don't fit in to the yin/yang dichotomy, and people manage to use those too. I bristle at any suggestion that anything is necessary or mandatory to establish a good dynamic. The world contains multitudes and can't be condensed into a single successful dynamic.
It's also funny that I was discussing this on Discord today and I also linked to the "reverse any advice you hear" post to acknowledge that all advice is conditional XD
I find the advice for yin men (advice I desperately need, I'm learning!) to "be hot/get famous" confusing -- pursuits that would result in fame (writing this substack, being a rockstar, etc) sound very yangish to me. Is there something I'm missing?